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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
09:53:24
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 Subject: RE: throttle body or m1
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Well, I'll go home tonight if I find some spare time. I'll post a 0-60mph footage of the 2bbl M1,1.7rr,gibson headers,50mm TB,magnaflow muffler, you'll see that from 0-3000 it's pretty doggy, it actually gets stuck at 3000rpm for a half second to a full second then fly's off. From that alone it shows power is not that great below 3000k. So if nothing else they might state the power starts at 2500rpms but not enough to move the weight of the truck due to less torque?
Anything under 3000rpms in 1st-2nd sucks
Anything under 3500rpms in 3rd gear sucks
Anything under 4000rpms in 4th sucks
Now who wants to lose 2000rpms to 4000rpms on there low revving engine with cast iron piston rods, push rod with hydraulic lifters and a 4800 rpm stock limiter? Hmm not me. Some may call me stupid, but I thought Dodge created this engine to make torque and that's what it has right now with decent hp power. Who say's torque can't win races? Maybe a diesel has torque but that's only at 1500rpms with a 3k limiter. That's not the same like a gas engine which can have a much more broader torque band and in a much lighter frame. Comparing apples to oranges.
One more thing, dyno's might show you that HP might be up vs a beer keg on a very low resistance dyno wheel. But in the real world try putting a real load on the engine and see how that reacts? weight and air resistance's for starters.
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rtxpres
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
10:54:01
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Sam - sorry (in more ways than one) that I don't live near so cal. I'm in central OH and we have that white stuff covering our lawns.:(
I'm not surprised at your hp peak as you have a 360 (and I've seen your cam specs). You probably find your best track performance by shifting a few hundred rpm above that, like 57-5800? So I'd think either M1 would be more beneficial to you than to someone with a stock or R/T cam. I know the M1's help (have a couple friends with the 4-bbl on 318's) but is it really cost effective for those who won't see rpm above 5400, either to cam choice or rev limiter.
For instance, with my stock intake and R/T cam I had to shift at 5400 for best performance. If I shift at 5400 now with the M1 2-bbl and Hughes cam I'm only a tenth and 1 mph faster. However, if I shift at 5900 I'm 3 tenths and 3.5 mph faster.
It's all in the combination and where you want your power band to be. No single setup is right for everyone. So, for whatever it's worth, that's my experience.:-)
RayB
http://www.dragtruk.com/ENTRIES/20KM1FD2KWBP.html
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rtdkota
R/T
12/06/2002
11:40:55
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Anthony-- I hear what you are saying... But, if you were to compare my truck to a stock setup, or lightly modded-- 0-3000 rpm-- I running as good or better than stock, and from 3000 rpm up it really gets going.
Around town, stop light to stop light, onramp to fwy-- I never have to go any higher than 4000 rpm... Ever... If I am it's because I want to go REALLY fast. The 2nd gear-3rd gear WOT bog is non-existant. I do not have the same low end grunt (0-2000 rpm) as some with a lot of mods & stock intake, but they don't have near the mid-range I have from ~2500-3500 rpm... and from there it's even better.
Again, this is with a 4bbl M1 intake--- I know, if I run the 2bbl-- It'll have TONS more low end, and killer midrange (I hope I still have the same amount or better top end). I'll show the dyno and 1/4 mi numbers once I get it. Dyno numbers do tell how well something puts down power (torque, like you said) is important-- if you can have a good low end torque, with a good hp curve that comes on at or near the torque peak, you'll have the most ideal setup.
Sam
RTDKOTA
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
12:29:58
|  RE: throttle body or m1
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I just found this. Check it out.
Per Huges
http://www.hughesengines.com/www/hughesengines/general/tech_articles/magnum_tech.asp
There is also much confusion and misunderstanding about intake manifolds, especially the stock barrel type. The stock intake system has separate individual runners for each cylinder. It is a very nice high tech design. The fact that the runners are separate and equal in size and shape causes an effect called inertia supercharging or ram tuning. This effect causes the cylinder to be filled with a greater air/fuel mixture in certain R.P.M range increasing the power over what it would be with older conventional style manifold. This power increase occurs at in an R.P.M. range, which is dictated by the runner lengths.
There are also some drawbacks to the manifold as it comes from the factory. The runner lengths are very long and they provide the power increase at RPM's just above idle for quick throttle response and mileage. The runners are also quite small at the cylinder head interface area, and in need of a port match in a big way. The ports in the manifold are approximately 0.100" shorter and 0.100" narrower than the ports in the head, which severely limits the amount of air flow through the system.
In our modified intakes we open the cylinder head end of the port up to match the cylinder heads and eliminate the this severe bottle neck. Next we shorten the individual runner lengths to move the inertia supercharging effect up into higher RPM ranges. Everything you do to increase power (except for stroking) moves the power band up, so we need the intake modified to work at a higher RPM too.
To give you some idea of lengths, the stock magnum intake has runners about 16" long. Our Stage I runner has about 14" long and our Stage II is 12". If the runners get much shorter you will get dips in your power band. The Mopar Performance Magnum M-1 intake is basically a carbureted intake with injector bosses and is designed for non-roller, flat tappet or roller cams with power bands from 5500 RPM and up. The runner length is barely 4.75" long -- much too short for hydraulic, roller cam power bands, which are generally below 6000 RPM. If you plan on only racing at the drag strip with lots of gears and stall--this is the manifold. If not, be careful or you'll lose your entire bottom end and mid-range torque. Our intakes also have the Plenum volume reduced for better throttle response. Our Stage II throttle body and Stage II intake are making 425/450 HP at the rear wheels with our HER1824AL cam and Stage II heads.
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DeepDak
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
14:28:13
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Damn, I was so set on purchasing an M1 in January, but I probably won't now. I say this because I can't shift past 5200 rpms with the stock rocker, springs, etc (don't want to float the valves). It sounds like I'll need to shift no sooner than 5500 rpms for the M1 2bbl to be most effective. Think I'll have to upgrade to the Crower setup before I buy the M1.
Anyone want to comment on my situation?? Oh, my 99 R/T is almost stock (intake, exhaust muffler, & electric fan).
Eli
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CASDAK
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
20:40:46
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Well I can vouch for the M-1...I was running a basically stock 318 Magnum/A-518 trans. for years. I only had the Mopar Computer, Exhaust, Underdrive Pulleys, Magnum Perf. throttle body and MSD Box/Coil.
The best time I ever got out of it in the 1/8th mile was 9.79 on street tires and 3.55 gears. I probably could have done better, but this was my first time on an actual race track.
Well, the drag racing bug hit again a few years later, and within a few months I had a 4-link/coil overs, 8.75 rear with 4:86 gears, 29x12.5 Mickey Thompson Sportsman PROS (super sticky), and the same old "bolt-on 318." The rear set-up got me down to 9.39 in the 1/8th...a whole .4 of a second off my best "street tired" effort. Then it was back to the drawing board.
I got the Crower 1.7RRs, M-1, Mopar Convertor, and JBA headers. Now that combination with no other "tweaking" netted me a 9.09 in the 1/8th...and it pulled great through all gears. So overall I've dropped my 1/8th mile times by .7 of a second, and still have room to improve!
What I'm getting at is if you intend to use the M-1, you will definitely need a convertor. That will help the launch and the overall performance of the intake. My 60ft times went from a best of 2.12 down to a 2.03/2.02.
As far as drivability, I can not say that this truck acts as a finicky race vehicle. In fact I've driven it to work (60 miles round trip), and never had any issues with drivability.
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
00:18:14
| RE: throttle body or m1
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DeepDak, don't be afrraid to get the M1. With the stock heads and cam, you can shift at 5200RPM and still see god gains. Anthony is still posting info comparing a beer barrel to a 4bbl M1 which isn't what you want. Get the 2bbl M1 and you WILL be happy. I've had mine for a while now and love it. Wouldn't run any other manifold. If I had to buy a new truck that didn't have it, the M1 would be the first mod I bought.
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
00:22:09
| RE: throttle body or m1
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I agree with HSKR. I love my M1 2brl.
99 R/T
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DeepDak
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
00:40:00
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Thanks CASDAK, HSKR, big-torque and others! I appreciate all the input.
Eli
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/07/2002
00:45:03
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Eli, i think HSKR has dyno #'s proving that there is no loss of torque with the 2bbl. i think you bought a large turtle, so IMO you should get it (hell, its worth buying to get rid of the belly pan gasket).
FWIW, kevin (the guy who had the black RC at carlsbad) has 4.56 gears and goes through the traps at 5800 rpm in 3rd gear on the stock springs. im not saying he should do it, but he has not blown anything up yet...lol i shifted mine at 5200 rpm with the stock springs for a long time with no damage.
~Eric
superdupercharged, M-1, 1.7 RR's, 52mm TB, ceramic headers, 3" carsound cat, and gibson muffler
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
01:39:51
| RE: throttle body or m1
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where cai i purchase a M1 2bbl and for everyth i need with it how much will it sit me back?
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
01:44:26
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Another thing I looked at is that Hypertech Reprogrammer my friend hooked me up with one for $315 so I was thinking about getting that...does anyone think that would be a wise invest or what all do you guys recommend?
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/07/2002
01:46:05
| RE: throttle body or m1
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there are other mods that will net more power than the hypertech... its not worth it IMO...
what year is your truck? if its a 2000 or older, you will be MUCH better off buying a mopar pcm.
~Eric
superdupercharged, M-1, 1.7 RR's, 52mm TB, ceramic headers, 3" carsound cat, and gibson muffler
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
01:49:33
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Do you Have AIM my name is L3LuRX311 my truck is a 99 ext cab headers flows throttle body spacer and some weird rigged intake haha
just want my truck to be faster and you guys soundl iek oyu know what is up can u give me a suggesto n what toget please?
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
01:51:20
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Also incase you were not aware mien is a 5.9 litre R/T ...
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/07/2002
01:51:27
| RE: throttle body or m1
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AIM = kotaondubs
~Eric
superdupercharged, M-1, 1.7 RR's, 52mm TB, ceramic headers, 3" carsound cat, and gibson muffler
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
11:59:50
| RE: throttle body or m1
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ok so if i get the m1, i need new springs???or new roller rockers???i was looking just to get teh bg flash and m1 and then be done until i can save up some more money.just need to kjow cuz i gota send in my pcm like next week for the flash and tryin to decide to m1 or not to m1.lkater.
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Brett A
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
12:00:42
| RE: throttle body or m1
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what about on a 2k1 R/T i heard the computers suck so waht should i do?
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
12:42:31
| RE: throttle body or m1
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ok here is what i want to do to my truck and im looking basically for mid to high 14s.intake,cat back,50mm tb,bg flash, and maybe 1.7s rr.now if i do these should i get the m1 flash or non m1 flash, cuz i really dont know if i want to replace a big thing like the intake, i just need some help with deciding thanks.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/07/2002
13:32:46
| RE: throttle body or m1
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you dont NEED anything to use the M1 except for the install kit that it comes with.
rockers, headers, TB ect will all help it run better.
as far as times go, well it just depends on where you live, what the temp is, how you drive, ect. lots of variables involved.
if you have a 02 truck, the only option right now is the B&G flash or the hypertech. i would go for the flash.
~Eric
superdupercharged, M-1, 1.7 RR's, 52mm TB, ceramic headers, 3" carsound cat, and gibson muffler
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
14:30:17
| RE: throttle body or m1
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so im kinda confused, what should i do???m1 or not m1????
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
16:44:26
| RE: throttle body or m1
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yes get the M1. get the 2 brl.
Pros : 20 peak HP
40-45 more @ high rpm
no more belly pan gasket
easier to access the distributor
looks cool
get to shop for a turtle ...... hee hee
Cons: pricey
loss of low end torque ( this varies from
person to person. Most say no loss of low
end trq. Depends on other stuff you have
too.... headers , bigger TB etc.)
I got .3 sec improvment in the 1/4 and can
spin the tires where I wasnt able to do it
before.
Go for it dude !!!!
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
17:14:05
| RE: throttle body or m1
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ok im gona go wit the m1 prolly, just need to kno if i dont get roller rockers and things will it eventually hut my engine????thanks
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DeepDak
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
19:37:42
| RE: throttle body or m1
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03graphrt
You cannot hurt your engine by installing the M1. You can hurt your engine by over-revving the engine once you get the rev-limiter removed. Over-revving can be done with the beer barrel or the M1.
Once you get your BG Flash, just remember that your STOCK valve train is not designed to see RPMs higher than 5200 or so (give or take). If you plan to hold your RPMs past 5300 or 5400 quite often, then you should upgrade your valve springs, push rods, retainers, rockers, etc. (Crower makes a nice steel upgrade).
I was at the same point in the road as you, to get or not to get the M1. I'm going to get the M1 and put a turle in, so I'll keep some low-end torque. I'm also not going to rev past 5200 RPMs until I get the steel Crower setup with guideplates and all.
Big-Torque,
Do you have a turle for your M1? What size?
Eli
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/07/2002
22:09:22
| RE: throttle body or m1
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actually i think im gona do the non m1 flash, just becuase i dont have experience with engine work and everyone i kno has no clu, and the cheapest ive seen for a prof install is like 300, so im just gona stick with the beer keg,and flash rrs,and tb.hopefully ill see 14s with that setup.
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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12/08/2002
10:14:39
| RE: throttle body or m1
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DeepDak ,
I have the small turtle. When I asked Jeff Arnold ( the guy who invented it ) which one he said ......... LRG.- N/A
SM. - good for S/C . I Plan on a S/C eventually so small is what I gots !
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/08/2002
12:22:58
| RE: throttle body or m1
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03grphrt, get the M1 flash anyways. It will still work better on the beer barrel.
Where are you located?? Might be able to get you some experienced help to put the M1 on if you decide to buy it.
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DeepDak
Dodge Dakota
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12/08/2002
13:26:03
| RE: throttle body or m1
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HSKR,
Summitracing lists a "Mopar Performance M1 Dual Plane Manifold" for '92 and newer magnum engines. It also says it works with our engines and four-barrel carburetors. The listing is on page 306 of there Nov-Dec 2002 catalog. I also found it online, there's the link:
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=search.asp%3FType%3Dbysummitpart%26Part%3DDCC-5007381%26Search.x%3D1%26SearchType%3DBoth
If this manifold does not exist, then what is Summit talking about? Oh, both the magazine and website (click on description) show pictures.
Eli
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/08/2002
14:25:06
| RE: throttle body or m1
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hey hskr, ok im gona go with the m1 flash then,and if you can get me some1 to install it ill get the m1 along with it, i live in sunrise, florida, and im 17 which is basically the reason i have no experience, i might be able to get my friends dad install it, hes a mechanic but doesnt know how hard it is,and if you can find sum1 id pay them at least 50 or 75(thats what ill prolyl have left over)thanks for helping me out.later.
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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12/08/2002
17:17:21
| RE: throttle body or m1
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You live in FL. Damn , youre by KRC. Have him do it. Gotta credit card ? ;-)
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