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Doug McCoach
Dodge Dakota
9/07/2001
23:04:38
|
 Subject: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Optimizer news:
Ok, I just had a lengthy conversation with Jim Belle. I asked him about the new KB Optimizer II computer upgrade for non s/c engines & he said it would be available in about a week, his sales dept said around xmas, ok, so it will be in the near future? Anyway, he said the sticking point was getting it to improve shift points, that is to firm them up & reduce shift duration. There was no mention of it being able to shift at higher/smarter rpms for better acceleration though. He said, Dodge uses the long shift points to lower fuel/hp during shifts to preserve the tranny. Besides chainging fuel mapping & timing, it will also turn on the electric fan sooner for cooler operating temperatures-its all good! Anyway, he said it'll be a real good upgrade for around $349 & turnaround will be 48 hours. He also agreed that the before/after graphs in the brochure are confusing but dyno results for the 4.7L V8 Auto is around 17 RWHP - not to shabby.
SuperCharger news:
I told him I was very interested in a KB s/c for my 2000 QC 4x4 Auto 4.7L V8 but told him I have reservations about it since I've heard of people having trouble with lean conditions & shifting problems. Jim said the 4.7L Dakota has an air/fuel ratio of 11:1 in 1-2-3 gears(not including the split low gear) & a 14:1 (or higher?) air/fuel ratio for 4th gear(overdrive). The purpose for the lean out condition in overdrive is to save gas & reduce power & it can be done safely at a much lower rpm. Apparently this overdrive lean condition is not a parameter that KB or anyone else has been able to change. This is where they use the term chrysler engines are "speed density". The trans problem arises when you super charge this engine. The first 3 gears are not a problem to add boost to & get good HP gains, however, if you add boost to the engine in overdrive you'll have a very lean condition & you'll burn up the pistons/engine. Thus, the KB solution was to prevent the tranny from shifting into overdrive
while under boost. so basically, its a 3 gear supercharger leaving overdrive for laid back/gas saving crusing & not for racing. What that means is, if you are in overdrive & you floor it, it will downshift into 3rd & stay ther until you ease off the gas enough to reduce boost. While in boost during upshifting acceleration, you will be able to run the rpm's way up in 3rd gear but will have to let off the gas considerably to get it to shift into overdrive. It makes sense to me since I always drive with overdrive off in town & when I want pedal to the metal acceleration. Also, when you hit the gas pedal hard in a non s/c'd set up the tranny downshifts to increase fuel delivery anyway. Well, the KB s/c does this too except to some people, it is an exaggerated feeling of downshifting & the complaint is that the s/c will kick in & cause a down shift when you go to make an ordinary pass of another vehicle. I can't say I am experienced with the KB s/c since I don't have one but it makes sense. I guess the dissapointing part is after a long/hard boost acceleration in 3rd gear @ 90+ mph you may want the boost to continue into 4th gear(overdrive) for some serious high speed acceleration. Well, no such luck. He said they did the same thing with Ford trucks & the owners are real happy with the kit. Other people who were dissatisfied said they frequently saw a lean condition under boost more than they would like. He said when that occurs, the s/c is reducing boost/power to preserve engine life. Jim said the Ford uses a mass air sensor which is much more forgiving. Anyway, he firmly stood by his product & said they would not sell a kit that causes pinging/detonation/lean condition & perhaps the people who have had the problem had created a vacuum problem during the installation process & didn't know it. He offered to send me a free(its $6 in the ad) KB s/c brochure & if I bought the kit he would throw in 1, 2, & 3lb boost pullies for times on the weekend when I want to run higher than normal(6lb) boost levels. He said it is important to run high octane with their kit & if you forgot to do so, their is a meter that tells you about it & the s/c automatically reduces power/boost to avoid detonation. He said if I use the 1, 2, & 3lb boost pullies that I would need to run 100 octane(airplane?) fuel. When I told him I didn't know where to get it, he said he would throw in a few cans of octane boost until I figured out where to get it on my own. It sounds like he is a nice guy & knows what he is talking about. I'm sure he would tell me anything if I bought the $4,000 kit though!? I didn't get to ask about the Optimizer II for the s/c kit as far as whether its included or not. Sorry for the long winded post but I welcome any & all comments!
2000 QC 4x4 Auto 3.55's 4.7L V8
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Hog Head
Gen II
9/08/2001
07:35:44
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Just ahd the KB installed on Tuesday on my (*' 5.2 auto. and that is exactly what it's doing. Must admit, thought something was wrong the way it would downshift at the slightest increase in throttle pressure, and or on any grade. Came up over the Grapevine after the install, and thought it was odd as to why the darn thing would not stay in overdrive. Was also a little scary running 90% of the grade in third gear. Thanks, think you found the awnser.
'98 True Blue Dak
John
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Jeffster
Dodge Dakota
9/08/2001
19:18:11
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Anyone knoe how it will behave in a 5 speed?
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GlenC
GenIII
9/09/2001
02:47:45
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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I just got my KB in the mail yesterday, i spend most of today putting it on. I didnt finish it, but im a little over half way, i should have it done before dinner tomorrow. Installation so far is pretty easy, there are a few spots 'missing' in the manual, but easy to figure out (one is getting the coolent hoses installed, they didnt tell me when to do it, nor what hoses to use, but a quick check and you can figure it out). I probably would have been better off to have someone install it for me, but i like the challange and hard work. I forgot to get out the digital camera today tho, so i'll get some finishing up pics tomorrow. I've got it sitting on the engine, and now i need to torque it down, then theres a good 100 steps more to do. Anyways, im off to bed so i can go pick up a new battery (i need a smaller one, the intake hose wont fit by it), some socket extension, and a deep socket 10mm for the intake studs. Talk to you later.
GlenC
Soon to be KB supercharged :)
'01, CC, SLT, 4.7, Auto, 3.55 LS
Gibson single catback. Z-tube.
Jet Chip Stage II. 180 T-Stat. Bosch 4417s
JBA Headers.
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Sam Carr
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
11:09:35
|  RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
I don't see the point of baying all that money for a supercharger when your truck well shut down at 98 mph.I have called the truck performance # at Chrysler and they tell me they never made a hi-po EC for a 4.7 Dakota!They tell me that ALL 4.7 shutdown at 98 mph.
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CW
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
12:27:20
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
It's all bout acceleration and torque not top speed, besides he can get the speed limiter removed.
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GlenC
GenIII
9/09/2001
17:51:19
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Something must be weird then, cause i dont have a speed limiter set at 98, the highest i've had it to is 117mph or so, but i know i have gone way faster than 98. I dont know why i dont have the limiter, but it seems like i dont. Well, back out to the driveway to see if i can finish this by the middle of the week. Yes, the install is that hard. Right now, my d@mn throttle cable is to long, and i cant get it to hook up right (its a stiff cable, and i dont want to but to many unnessary bends in it). Lates.
GlenC
'01, CC, SLT, 4.7, Auto, 3.55 LS
Gibson single catback. Z-tube.
Jet Chip Stage II. 180 T-Stat. Bosch 4417s
JBA Headers.
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alshadow
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
19:47:59
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
GlenC,
I have KB on a 98 5.2 Dak. Had it professionally installed by a shop that does a lot of s/c installs and it took them three days.
Just put a Optima Red Top in the truck and it gives you a lot more room for the intake hose.
I had a lean out spot just as boost came on. Solved with a Hypertech Module and a 160 degree thermostat. Hope you don't have same problem.
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Sam Carr
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
19:57:06
|  RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
I wonder what the dealer would say when you tell them that you trashed your engine or trans,do you think they well fix it for free?Maybe we should trade in our Dakota,s and get a real factory race truck {Ford Lighting}.For a few bucks more we can get a truck that has a warranty that well cover a supercharger.A 4x4 is not going to beat a lighting anyway.
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alshadow
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
20:24:24
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
IP: Logged
Message:
Sam, good point.
My truck had 50K on it when KB installed. Has been on for about 15 months and no apparent damage yet.
The 5.2 seems to hold up well as long as you keep the boost under 9 lbs.
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GlenC
GenIII
9/10/2001
11:09:52
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Well, i look at it this way, if it blows up, it didnt have enough power for me anyways, and i'll go get a nice big hemi crate to shove in it. I like the 4wd, cause i can take it up in the woods and what not, lets see a lightning follow me up there, then when i hit the street, i go waste some of those 'wanna-be' ricers. Its all for fun. Actually, i kinda hope it blows up after 30,000 miles or so, cause bout that time i'll be ready to throw in a 5.7 :)
GlenC
'01, CC, SLT, 4.7, Auto, 3.55 LS
Gibson single catback. Z-tube.
Jet Chip Stage II. 180 T-Stat. Bosch 4417s
JBA Headers.
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Joe Naysayer
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
12:34:24
| What's the point?
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Message:
I'm with you Sam! Yeah, I don't see the point of trying to make something more efficient and fun to drive. I mean, afterall.... isn't the entire job of any vehicle just to get you from point a to point b? I don't know why you people would ever want to go faster than the speed limit. Going any faster is illegal. Besides, now we're talking about hot-rodding a truck? What's the point of that? Any faster than 30 mph and the sheets of plywood will fly out of the back. I don't know why all you guys want to ruin a perfectly good truck by hopping it up. If the truck was meant to go faster than that 98 mph than Dodge would have made it that way. You have no idea what will happen if you exceed that speed. Heck, it might become unstable at that incredible speed and just fly off the road. The maximum legal speed is already 70 mph! You people are just plain crazy!
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alex
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
13:02:12
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Yeah, i'm with Joe and Sam. Performance is stupid. This whole section of the board should just be removed and replaced with a "Towing and Firewood Hauling" discussion forum. If you drive your Dakota fast and have a loud muffler and squeal your tires, I hate you. Stay out of my town!!
Oh yeah- PS- After a whole summer of drag racing every Friday nite and Saturday afternoon, Sam & Joe have convinced me to stop that dumb stuff too. I'm going to buy a receiver hitch and mudflaps. Talk to you guys soon!
Alex
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GlenC
GenIII
9/10/2001
13:02:51
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
I didnt say i drive at that speed all the time, but i have been there. And yes, the truck did feel like it was 'floating' some. Its all about acceleration for me, i could care less how fast i can go, and if i was limited to 98mph good, so be it, all i want to do is go 0-35 is the fastest time possible :P. Most people say i just have to much money to spend, i think thats what my problem is. Who knows, maybe i'll rice out my accord too, but whats the point of that too.
GlenC
'01, CC, SLT, 4.7, Auto, 3.55 LS
Gibson single catback. Z-tube.
Jet Chip Stage II. 180 T-Stat. Bosch 4417s
JBA Headers.
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Joe Naysayer
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
13:58:29
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
So how much firewood CAN your Dakota haul?
I don't haul much in mine because I'm afraid that if I hit the bumpstops the transmission will go out. I don't think you should tow with a Dakota either. That's abusive. I saw a guy rip his bumper off because he tried towing a house trailer one time. If you wanted to tow and haul then you should have got a Turbo-Diesel Dually Ram. If you wanted to race you should have bought a Lightning. Dakotas are just for show. They look better than any of the other mini-trucks. I usually wash my truck about twice a week. I can't stand having a dirty truck.
I was thinking about getting some mud flaps for my truck, but decided not to because it would detract from the stellar looks of my truck. I also thought about adding some of those cool wheel-well extensions like the 4wdrives have. But then I was afraid somebody would think I had a 4wdrive. 4 wheeling is stupid too. 4wdrive is for in case it's snowing or icy. Why would anybody want to take a good truck and scratch it all up on rocks and trees? I don't know why all you people have to abuse everything all the time. That's not what it was made for.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
14:40:36
| Hey Joe
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Message:
Hey Joe -
When you start making my payments, then you can tell me how to drive my truck!
As far as I know, my truck is stable to at least 140 mph. Been there, done that.
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alex
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
15:52:52
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
Joe,
I really used to haul just enough firewood to get traction on the starting line at the dragstrip. Usually about 2/3 to 5/8 of a cord of green pine. It usually helped the tires bite "out of the hole." And the sap leaking out the back helped the guy behind me to win his race, too.
I heard about that house trailer guy losing his bumper, so I ordered the heavy-duty cooling package so I could get the 170-amp alternator. That way the CD player won't slow down when I turn on the under-hood light to change my K&N drop-in air filter (10-15 hp!!).
Now that I don't race anymore, however, I have decided to keep my Dakota looking its best. I am just finishing washing it for the third time since last nite. I use Simple Green degreaser on the fender flares. No abuse there!!!!
I think having a trailer queen Dakota would be the best. Maybe I will wait for the new 5.7L Hemi (!!!) Dakota to come out and buy one with R/T stickers. I will drive it 1.4 miles and then keep it in the garage for 25 years. They will probably find my truck and write magazine articles about my all-original numbers-matching '02 Hemi Dak for the 25th anniversary of the Hemi Dakota!!!! I am saving up now!!
Cool, eh?
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y22man
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
17:16:35
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Message:
well said dunner. Still wondering why dodge advertises the pay load of the Dak. Why would they sell a tow package with the truck. Oh ya for looks. hmm 4x4. what do you use that for again.
Jay
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Sam Carr
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
19:17:09
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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What a minute Glen C,you got me on the wood's thing,good answer.Glen I like your attitude.Go get them.
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Jeffster
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
20:18:27
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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>If you wanted to race you should have bought a Lightning<
The lightning is fast stock no question but IMHO it is absolutley the wrong chassis to build on. You are limited by the imense weight right from the get go. An OHC small block V8 paired with a lighter chassis is a perfect base to build on for a fast truck. Who makes one like that??
>If you want to tow you should have bought a ram with duallies<
Ya right that makes sense. Towing a 2,000lb tent trailer with a gargantuan industrial sized truck that won't even fit in most driveways is real smart. My dak and I think most except the R/T's are aproved to tow 6,000lb's That's plenty for most aplications.
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Doug McCoach
Dodge Dakota
9/12/2001
21:53:08
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Dear Joe Blow, I was going to totally bash you on your uneducated/retarded comments but I can't help but laugh at some of your responses & others as well. I was gonna say things like, why don't you save your stupid comments for your blow up doll in your bath tub & why don't you stop washing your truck so much since it causes blindness-like jerking off too much. Ooops, I guess I just did say what I was thinking, oh well, sorry you hand job. But I didn't want to stray from the original purpose of this post which was to educate & be educated. This post is for men who like trucks & who allow them to get dirty once in a while, I know, its a truck for ch..st sake but it doesn't have to be slow. Joe, I still welcome your comments too but try to say something useful or smart for a change, like how many fingers you have on one hand, I'm sure you stare at it enough. Hey did you know the first sign of retardation, its hair on your knuckles, do you know the second sign, see my next post.
Kenne Bell Update continued:
Just received the KB S/C $6 package brochure in the mail. It includes everything that KB has to offer. The Optimizer II does come included with the 4.7L Dak s/c package as well as aux injectors that resolve the lean out/detonation condition that occurred in the early s/c version. Also, he offers a spark module & a fuel pump module that improves fuel delivery when using higher lbs of boost. Apparently the new s/c package includes a speed density to mass air conversion meter that allows the Dak to respond better to the increased fuel requirements of a s/c & makes it work more like a Ford/Chevy. I just skimmed through the many pages & hand outs of info but I have full confidence that I will be buying some of my after market products from KB. In the tech tip section, he discusses just about everything & why he thinks some are better than others. This is a man who has been doing this for 30+ years, he outta know a thing or two don't ya think? For those who have recently installed their s/c's or have in the past, I still want to hear from you.
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GlenC
GenIII
9/12/2001
23:21:18
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Well, im still installing. :( I ran out of time on sunday, and i work long hours at work, so it only leaves me about 2 hours a night to work on it... just enough time to get things torn apart. So far, im on step 90 or so of the install manual, out of like 140 or somthing. The main problems i have been having are little design differences between my '01 and their '01. Like my EVAP stuff is mouted off the battery mouting case, theirs shows it on the fire wall. Some bolts where not the right length, and certain steps should really be performed before they say. Right now im just plain fed up with it and want some one to finish it for me, but thats not gonna happen. Tomorrow i have to go get some smaller hoseclamps, and see if i can rig a way to move my evap stuff away from the hole the 4" air tube is going to use. I also had to get a new battery, the battery that comes with the towing package is WAY to big to fit the tube by. Looking back, i really wish i would have had someone install it for me. BUT it probably would have costed WAAAY to much, so i would have ended up doing it myself anyways. In any case, i will keep working away on it, and hopefully have it done this weekend, if im lucky.
GlenC
'01, CC, SLT, 4.7, Auto, 3.55 LS
Gibson single catback. Z-tube.
Jet Chip Stage II. 180 T-Stat. Bosch 4417s
JBA Headers.
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alex
Dodge Dakota
9/13/2001
08:51:13
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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McCoach....
I, for one, was kidding. I really don't even know who Joey Naysayer is, but his arguement sounded too funny to let go. Y'know?
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Doug McCoach
Dodge Dakota
9/13/2001
12:30:13
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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I'm just kidding too, sorry Joe, I'm just a little upset about the terrorist activity & what has happened to all the innocent people & their families & may have vented more than I should have on you in this post. I just didn't want a good post to get lost. I love the humor that arrises from these posts & am not upset about that at all. Its just that in the past I have seen some good posts disspaear because of too many "off the subject" comments & all the follow up comments that follow but I think you guys are helping to keep this post alive, so I say let the comments roll. I still encourage any & all comments especially those who are in the process of or who have installed a s/c in the past to let us know how they are doing. As you may have noticed, I am interested in installing one myself but had major reservations about it. I'm still not sure if having a $4000 s/c that doesn't work in overdrive would be a dissapointment & am hoping this post will shed some light on the subject. In a related post, it looks like Hypertech may be making a plug in module or a programmer for the 4.7L dak. A plug in module is not a new thing for the 4.7L but I think a programmer would be great since it would enable us to change the shift points which I think is the biggest dissapointment of the Dak.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
9/13/2001
13:13:05
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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I'm following this all with great interest myself. I'm working on a turbo install for my 4.7.
On the shift points.... we installed my custom pcm which is for a 5-speed into a buddies 4.7 automatic. Without the pcm telling it what to do.... the trans would shift very firmly on every shift. At WOT it would shift at 5500 every time. It would bark the tires on the 1-2 shift under full throttle. The only downside to the swap was the fact that the trans was then stupid. It didn't know when to downshift so it wouldn't. You had to manually downshift if you were moving. It would however, downshift to 1st if you stopped at a light.
As for Joe..... I think he was purposely trying to push our buttons. It's pretty obvious that Alex could see it was a joke from the start.... good going Alex! hehehe
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alex
Dodge Dakota
9/13/2001
13:51:59
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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For Sale:
One set of mud flaps and one receiver hitch. Fits all 97-02 Dakotas.
I'm tired of washing my truck. And I'm out of wax. So, hell, I'm goin' racin' tomorrow nite.
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Adam
Dodge Dakota
9/16/2001
23:55:40
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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This for Duner. I have been looking for info on turbocharging my 4.7l for a month. What type of turbo are you using? I was planning on using a Big 16G Mitsubishi turbo made for an Eclipse. Please get in touch with me. PLEASE!!!!!!!!
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Adam
Dodge Dakota
9/16/2001
23:56:30
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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This for Duner. I have been looking for info on turbocharging my 4.7l for a month. What type of turbo are you using? I was planning on using a Big 16G Mitsubishi turbo made for an Eclipse. Please get in touch with me. PLEASE!!!!!!!!
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
9/17/2001
01:12:49
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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I will be using a Garrett T4 turbo for my installation. I plan on picking up the turbo and wastegate tomorrow.
A great site for locating things you need for a turbo install:
http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/Default.htm
I plan on only putting about 7 lbs of boost to the engine to start with. There are two reasons for this. The first being the plastic intake manifold. I'm not sure how much it could stand. I plan on building my own intake manifold in the near future. The second reason is that the MSD 8-Channel Digital Ignition system won't be available until around the first of the year. Without this aftermarket ignition, there is no efficient/economical way of adding a boost-retard system. Once I have both of these items covered, I'll be able to step it up a bit.
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Adam
Dodge Dakota
9/17/2001
23:27:27
|  RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Man!! Your truck is gonna be a holy terror!!
You brought up a point that I didn't think of. The plastic intake manifold would definitely have to go. Running 7psi would give you around 49% gain in hp. That's kick-@$$. Let me know how this works out for you.
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Doug McCoach
Dodge Dakota
9/22/2001
17:26:23
| RE: Kenne Bell Update!
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Well, I just spent my spare change on a new Yamaha Raptor 660 Raptor Quad runner so it looks like I won't be getting a S/C after all. I still might get KB to reprogram my computer. Hope you guys keep this post going, Turbo charging sounds radical, I wonder if it would prevent the tranny from shifting into overdrive on the auto?
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