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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2004
21:50:38
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 Subject: RE: 180 thermostat
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The reason your not supposed to run the 180 stat in the winter is that the engine doesn't reach the operating temp set in the PCM. The computer stays in the "warm-up" mode all the time. While in the "warm-up" mode ignition timing, and the fuel injector pulse duration is automaticly reduced. This is to prevent over loading the engine while it is still cold. In other words, your HP and your gas mileage will go down drastically in the winter time with the 180 stat. The richer fuel mixture will reduce the exhaust temperatures to the point that the cats won't function properly. If you live where you have emissions inspections make sure you have it done in the summer on a hot day with the AC running to keep the engine temps up enough for the PCM to run the engine at the correct timing and fuel mixture ratio.
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2004
22:58:31
|  RE: 180 thermostat
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R/T Blues,
Is this your experience with the 5.9? Cause it seems on the 4.7, when the gauge stays about 1/3 of the gauge, inbetween the hash marks on the gauge, that it runs fine. I couldn't imagine, that it stays in the warm-up mode. Sure hauls ass. My mpg, is excellent too. NOw it is the 4.7, with a tranny you have to shift, etc.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
1/20/2004
23:42:46
| RE: 180 thermostat
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I've been running a 160 t-stat in my 4.7 for months now.
No problems, and it deffinitely does NOT stay in open loop mode.
And when I go to Northern AZ where it snows, the heater still blows HOT as hell even tho the temp is just above the C mark.
I also run no clutch fan with electric coming on and off between 170 and 175 degrees.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2004
00:12:57
| RE: 180 thermostat
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If you have a standard it probably won't effect you as much. The computer can't control when you shift a standard. My 4.7L auto won't shift into OD until the temperature gage is at least 1/8 of way off the bottom. The torque convertor won't lock up either until it reaches a certain temp. The engine is also sluggish until the temp needle starts moving up. I agree that it seems to run it's best just prior to getting up to full temp. I'm not disagreeing that the 180 stat won't increase HP. I'm just saying it will take it a little longer to warm up. Therefore a little extra idle time should be given on these cold mornings before you drop the hammer down.
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2004
01:04:23
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Sorry but this is killing me. You mean if it had say a 2000 degree t-stat it would warm up faster? It warms up at the same rate no matter what temp the t-stat you have.
No offense, but geeez.
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2004
12:44:01
| RE: 180 thermostat
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R/T blues, you said:
I'm not disagreeing that the 180 stat won't increase HP. I'm just saying it will take it a little longer to warm up.
I don't think the 180 INCREASES HP, not inherently like a cam, etc. would. But it keeps the engine just a bit cooler all the time, which has the POTENTIAL of increased HP, at least thats what I kinda thought. A gear head friend says it will increase engine life overall too.
I thought the 180 opened sooner than say, a 195, so technically it sould warm up sooner, but stay at a cooer temp under normal conditions.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2004
14:23:04
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Jeremia2360,
You have obviously never compared the 2 thermostats. I have used the 160, 180, 195 and even some in betweens like a 185. On most engines like my 360 the thermostat is against the engine. The thermostat will actually reach 180 before the radiator does. As soon as it opens the cool water hits it and it closes again, thus maintaining 180 degrees. The computer is trying to maintain 185-205 degrees sense this is the normal operating range. If the engine never reaches 185 the computer will stay in the warm up mode, thus never warming up to the normal operating range.
Conclusion:
If the engine never reaches normal operating temp (195) then the computer stays in warm up mode. Therefore it never actually warms up. It may take 10 minutes on a very cold day for the engine to reach 195 when it has a 195 stat it. 10 minutes is shorter than never. If your definition of being warmed up is 180 then yes it would take less time to reach 180 than 195. Your computer is not prgrammed for 180 nemrod! If a 180 stat was better for your engine than the 195 I think the engineers at DC would put one in from the factory.
Especially if it increased engine life like some people are claiming. No one at DC is purposely shortening the life of the engine by installing a 195 stat. That would mean the rest of the automotive engineers of the world are idiots also.
Running excessively rich fuel mixtures will only increase engine life if you are having detonation problems. Otherwise, the excess fuel mixtures created my the PCM thinking the engine hasn't warmed up yet will actually shorten the engines life. Carbon build up is the result of an egine that is running too cold. These carbon deposits break loose eventually and the act like sand paper between the pistons and the cylinder walls. The hotter the combustion process (leaner fuel mixture) the cleaner the engine runs. Thia is of course assuming you don't have detonation.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2004
15:10:27
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Just one more little tid bit. One of the main reasons the factory uses a 195 stat is to help get the moisture out of the engine. I read on this thread and some other threads that some of you are running 160 stats. Unless you change your oil about every 1000 miles you are destroying the bearings in your engine. It is criticle the engine reaches a high enough temperature to make water evaporate. At 160 the engine is barely warm enough to get rid of moisture. If you make a lot of short trips like 5 miles or less then you will never get rid of the moisture in your engine. This will cause acids to form in the oil. This is a process not only created by the cooler temperature but also the richer fuel mixture your PCM is making the engine run at because it thinks it's still warming up. The excess raw fuel and unburned gases creat hydrocarbons that find there way past the rings and into your engine oil. When they combine with the moisture (water) in your oil they form acids. This acid loves the soft babbit material your rod and main bearings are made of. This will drastically reduce the life of your engine. 160 stats are for racing only. Most racers don't use 160 stats. They use orifaces to reduce the flow of water rather than having a temperature sensitive spring regulating the temperature. If the engine runs hot they increase the orriface. If it runs cold the decrease it. Don't talk about crap you know absolutely nothing about.
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2004
18:40:45
| RE: 180 thermostat
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OK RT relax. I`m a nimrod not a nemrod by the way. My Dakota doesn`t seem to mind the 180 t-stat. My oil analysis results are excellent. I`m not stuck in "warm up mode" for extended periods at all. If I thought I was hurting the engine I would not run a 180. Emissions, drive-ability, and fuel economy are also issues with manufacturers choosing a 195 stat, not just what will "perform" best. I thought running a little cooler would give a mild performance boost and be a little less stressful on the engine heat wise. The trade off being a small drop in fuel economy.
So far so good, if I see otherwise myself or a bunch of people start posting problems with the 180 I`ll put the 195 back.
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wrong dudes
Dodge Dakota
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1/24/2004
08:19:25
| RE: 180 thermostat
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the 195 stat is used to reduce NOX emissions not "get moisture out of the engine" all you youngsters seem to do is come up with ways to explain things that never ever entered the converstation when the engineers designed the thing.
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wrong dudes
Dodge Dakota
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1/24/2004
08:19:26
| RE: 180 thermostat
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the 195 stat is used to reduce NOX emissions not "get moisture out of the engine" all you youngsters seem to do is come up with ways to explain things that never ever entered the converstation when the engineers designed the thing.
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JayDak99
GenI
1/24/2004
18:38:56
| RE: 180 thermostat
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I run a 180 tstat, and I can tell a differance in many ways. First is that the heater does not get as warm, I would not like a 160 as all it would be too cold (for me and for the truck.) these engines are more efficiant at 195 than 180. Fuel economy can drop running them at 180. They do have more power just under the normal operating temp of 195. If an engine is running at 160 it will have probe getting rid on moisture esp the 4.7's that seem to gunk up already. It seems like a contridiction to have a 160 tstat and set the fan to come on at 190. which temp are you trying to achieve? The stat might be opening at 160, but the engine might still be in the 170's.
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WipLash
Dodge Dakota
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1/24/2004
21:00:11
| RE: 180 thermostat
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You got it backwards there. Excess NOX emissions results from higher combustion temperatures and leaner fuel ratio mixtures. When you install a 180 stat the PCM remains in "warm up mode" and it richens the fuel mixture just like the automatic chokes used to do on the non-computer controlled engines back in the 70's and 80's. If you don't believe this just read the thread posted yesterday by Conig (P1281 code). He and several others installed the 180 stat and their PCM started throwing the P1281 code. That is the code for taking too long to warm up. There is an increase in carbon-monoxide emissions from running the 180 stat.
There is an increase in emissions using the 180 stat. The only reason for the increased carbon-monoxided is the richer fuel mixture. If the PCM is flashed so that it thinks 180 is the normal operating temperature then it will lean the fuel mixture back out to 14.7:1 and emissions will go back to normal. Gasoline burns at the same temperature no matter if you run a 160 or a 195 stat. Also, I'm probably older than you are. I also have a degree in Engineering and thermodynamics was one of the areas I specialized in. If condensation doesn't take place in an engine then how does water droplets form in your exhaust when you start you engine in the mornings. Do you think this phenomenon only happens in your exhaust? It happens to every metal object on earth that gets subjected to extreme temperature changes in the presence of cool moist air. So unless you live in Arizona or Nevada you have to worry about moisture forming in the engine running the 180 stat. If you never make short trips it should be OK even in cooler climates. If your like me you only live 5 miles from your job and my R/T doesn't get up to operating temperature for 10 miles. I have to contend with moisture in the engine even with the 195 stat.
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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1/24/2004
22:31:15
| RE: 180 thermostat
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WipLash, please read my statements(and questions) and correct me if I`m wrong for the benefit of my motor.
Not everyone with a 180 t-stat is in warm up mode. Some do and throw a code. I don`t know why, maybe their sensor is off a few degrees? Maybe their stat opens early? If I was in warm up mode all the time I would know wouldn`t I? When I got on the highway when it was 5 degrees before the motor was close to warm it wouldn`t shift into overdrive in warm up mode would it? I mean, it didn`t at first, but after it "warmed up" after a about 5 minutes it did. It wasn`t like I was sitting in traffic and it got above 180(I think it was Duner who posted that the Robert Shaws open at 183, Stants were inconsistent). Was it in between open and closed loop? It`s either in open or closed loop right?
If WipLash had stated that SOME people might have a problem and stay in warm up mode I wouldn`t be ranting right now. He made it sound like it`s unavoidable.
For the the benefit of people researching this topic they should know they will more than likely not throw a code or be in "warm up mode", but a small percentage will.
03 qc 4.7 auto 4x4 25k
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WipLash
Dodge Dakota
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1/24/2004
23:26:13
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Well, the most accurate way to tell if your engine is staying in the warm-up mode is to test the exhaust gas to see what air/fuel ratio you are running. If it is around 12:1 then you are staying in warm-up mode. Also, it is a timed event. The PCM throws the code for taking too long to warm up. Most stats cycle open and closed at least + or - 5 degrees. You could be going above and below the magic "warm-up" mode temp every time the stat opens and closes. It appears the magic number for throwing the code is around 185. I think everyone that is having code issues are using Stant stats. Also, the people throwing codes are all 4.7L. The stat is in a different location on them I believe. That shouldn't make any difference.
In the past I used Stant stats a lot and I never had one that was accurate. I've had some that was nearly 20 degrees off. They are almost always off on the cold side. I think Stant does that by design so that they don't have to worry as much about law suits.
If your not throwing codes there shouldn't be anything to worry about. If the stat is a 180 and it is fully opened at 180 then I don't see how you can't be throwing codes.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
1/25/2004
00:22:47
| RE: 180 thermostat
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THis is what I used to fine tune my electric fan. Shown is a cheap DVOM (one I keep in the truck) and a Fluke D50 dual input K-Type thermometer.
I have always been one to TRY something. If it don't work I change it back.
I first installed a 180 t-stat. Then just for sh*ts and giggles (not too mention the 4.7 is the easiest t-stat to change in history) I decided to try a 160 to "take one for the team". I figure you all and I are on the same team???
So. Since using the 160 t-stat, no clutch fan, and my electric cycling on at around 170 to 175 I have had no problems for months and months.
I drive 1 mile from my house and my truck has heat and OD. (4th and 5th gear OD's in my 5-45RFE).
So what can I say????
I haven;t found a reason to change back to the 180 or 195 t-stat even tho I have em in my tool box and ot takes 10 min to change.
If it becomes PROVEN it is bad, I'll put the f**king 180 or 195 back in two secs!
But I don't see anyone coming to an agreement. BTW. I live in AZ. It was over 100 a few months back and it gets down to 20 degrees or so up in the RIM (over 7000 ft altitude)
I'm going up there tomarrow morning pulling two quads to go play in the SNOW.
If my truck FINALLY throws a code or refuses to blow HOT air I'll let you know!!!!
Peace!
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2004
00:33:10
| RE: 180 thermostat
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I don't think you have to worry about anything running too cold in AZ.
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2004
01:38:12
| RE: 180 thermostat
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WipLash thanks for the reply. I just did some searching on this site. It was Bernd not Duner who said the Stants were inconsistent. Type in "bernd 180 thermostat", for some interesting threads on this subject.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
1/26/2004
00:49:44
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Today I went up into the mountains to ride our Quads in the snow.
On the way up this hill my check engine light came on.
Checked it when I got into Payson. The code was a P0031
The book I found in Checker didn;t show no such code.
Truck runs fine, not in limp mode or anything. For all I know that code could be a dipsh*t code for low fluid LOL, but I doubt it. It was just serviced.
I don't think the code had anything to do with the cold t-stat, I was pulling a hill and the code should clear for a while when I do the PCM reset thing with the battery and key thing.
But it comes right back.
I'm waiting for someone to let me know what that code is. If anyone here knows let me know. And if it turns out to be the t-stat, I'll let you all know as well. But I dount it's that, the t-stat wouldn't throw a code right away after re setting the PCM. Somthing has to have come unplugged or a sensor went to sh*t or something.
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WipLash
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2004
02:10:55
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Never heard of that code. Sounds like a gremlin. It's one of those d@mn computer things. They need a reboot button on the dash!LOL!
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